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Topic: New site wishlist (Read 908 times) |
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Von Stalhein
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Firstly, regarding the starting of a brand-new, community-paid for and run site, I'd be more than willing to play an active role in it's running and administration etc. etc. -though- due to my personal situation, I'm not in a position to make any monetary contributions  But I'd still love to help in the ways I -can-.
Second, we need to decide on a new place for this discussion (a new, community run version of the site) to go -now-. This thread appears to be the wishlist for the new site Rizzen is making, and considering what is now being discussed on it... well it's sadly ironic at the least. Like Kalia said, I mean, we're in the General Discussion Forum for crying out loud!
I agree that Bioware's site isn't ideal... and if Kalia is willing... I can't see any big flaws with her offer...
And to think this all started because of... oh **** it was because I mentioned the front-page thing...
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 9, 2006, 5:05PM » |
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Bigbluepaw
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Star, I didn't mean to offend or try to frustrate you. Just trying to do what makes sense to me.
on Feb 9, 2006, 4:58 PM, Kalia D'Malen wrote:| I have offered to create a subsite on my personal site for this discussion and would include a very public, very viewable, non-application membership forum for anyone's perusal. |
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Sounds like a good idea to me. Should alleviate both concerns, no?
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 9, 2006, 5:11PM » |
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StarStuff
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Yes that would alleviate two of the concerns, but not the most important one, which is:
We (some of us) have now publicly stated that we're so fed up with the present state of affairs that we're prepared to take matters into our own hands. However, we haven't given Rizzen chance to see that this is how (at least some of) the community feels, and for him to do something about it - if he wants to.
So, yeah, it's discussing overthrowing the government in the Houses of Parliament ( I prefer the British version), but at this stage I think that is necessary, because otherwise we're being a bit premature IMO. At the end of the month when nothing's been done, fine, I have no problems whatsoever taking the discussion elsewhere, because then there is proof positive that the site is a dead duck.
You see my reasoning?
--StarStuff
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 9, 2006, 5:24PM » |
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Bigbluepaw
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on Feb 9, 2006, 5:10 PM, StarStuff wrote:BBP, seeing as you don't understand what I mean by not understanding jargon, I have highlighted the problem words in bold. I am uneducated wrt computers, not stupid!!!
| Second, while I know we are all excited about finally addressing many of the faults with this site... heck I know I am... I think we should take Carlo's suggestions to heart. We might want to focus on the core infrastructure first with the simplest of UIs to get the most basic functionality there first. While there are a few things definitely wrong with this site, it does have some very non-standard functionality. We probably should think hard about the object model and the relationships between the objects. That should be mapped out and then executed upon. |
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To all of the above bold words/phrases: ?!?!
--StarStuff
[EDIT: Hmm. Reposted cos the thread went screwy. Seems that the problem lies in the markup in your post, BBP. No idea where though!] |
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Star, I've seen what you've worked on before and how much effort you've put into things. I definitely know you are not stupid.
Core Infrastructure - This covers all the stuff like the database that tracks everything and the related scripts.
UIs - These are just the HTML pages. The User Interface that people see when they go to the site.
Object Model and Relationships - Certain things are 'objects' in databases like games, players, campaigns, etc. They have attributes and relationships to other objects. For example, a game has a number of players.
Mapped out and Executed - By this, I mean that we need to diagram all of this out first, so we understand what the design will be so we can agree on it, and then start writint scripts, setting up the databases and creating the HTML UI pages.
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Bigbluepaw
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Err... this is becoming a staggered response thread.
Anyway, I see your point, but regardless of if the debate occurs here or at a different site, Rizzen will navigate there. He will see it one way or another.
Additionally, we've discussed this again and again here. He's read it again and again here. He's responded a couple times. He has to know this is coming, no?
Carlo made a very good point that we don't have much time to get ready, even for the most basic type of site... like no bells or whistles.
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Von Stalhein
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Just pass it off as me feeling odd discussing "abandoning" NWC -in- NWC's general forum. Naturally, no matter where we hold the discussion, Rizzen will find it.
I do have one, very large worry though... which I think we should all consider:
Rizzen, Gilaun etc. run NWC (and are presumably building NWC2 or whatever) purely out of their free will. With the exception of the server the community bought, they are under no obligations whatsoever. I can't help thinking... everything we've said can be hardly boosting -their- morale can it? Just a thought...
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StarStuff
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on Feb 9, 2006, 5:26 PM, Von Stalhein wrote:| I can't help thinking... everything we've said can be hardly boosting -their- morale can it? Just a thought... |
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I agree, and that's one of my concerns too. However, Rizzen has brought it on himself by not communicating with us, the users/contributors. If he *is* still building a new site, how do we know? He isn't telling us that on a regular basis. For all *we* know, RL problems at his end have put a complete stop to him ever getting a new site up and running.
It only takes a few minutes once a month to keep the community informed and satisfied. Morale is a two-way thing, like communication.
--StarStuff
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Von Stalhein
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You're right about it being a two-way thing. Personally, inside, I'm hoping that Rizzen and Gilaun are still on-project, on-task, and that they really are going to be presenting us with a new version of NWC for NWN2. *crosses fingers*
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StarStuff
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OK, I've thought about it some more, and have managed to pin down the cause of my issues with this whole "where to hold the discussion" thing.
As I see it, there are two separate parts to what we are all talking about. One is the discussion about the features and functionality that the community as a whole would like to see their new/revamped site to contain. This is the part that I think should remain on this site, readily viewable by all (including Rizzen, should he be working on the new site and making use of our suggestions).
The other part is the contingency/forward planning of how to go about sorting out financing a new site, and the technicalities involded in the ... core infrastructure...?  , and all the other management-type stuff associated with having a community-owned and -run site. That is the bit that I am not too happy about having here, because that side of it is the bit that feels wrong to me, and besides which I am pretty sure that most end-users don't give a fig how it's run or who runs it, as long as it has the features they want.
Seems to me like continuing the features discussion in public this thread, and me modifying the first post to include a link to Kalia's site (thanks for the offer, Kalia ) for the management discussion in semi-private (not right here under everyone's nose, but anyone that was interested would be welcome to join in), would be the best compromise. Does that sound like a plan?
--StarStuff
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Bigbluepaw
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on Feb 9, 2006, 6:09 PM, StarStuff wrote:| As I see it, there are two separate parts to what we are all talking about. One is the discussion about the features and functionality that the community as a whole would like to see their new/revamped site to contain. This is the part that I think should remain on this site, readily viewable by all (including Rizzen, should he be working on the new site and making use of our suggestions). |
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Since someone insists... aherm... on discussing this here, fine. We can proceed.
What often happens is that when folks gather up a long wish list of enhancements, they often get just that... a application or website that resembles a mass of very loosely related things.
As a result, I suggest we take a slightly different approach. The following were my original thoughts.
Before we dive in, I thought a top down approach from a player perspective might be good. By this, I mean that we should think about the types of players that will be coming and participating in the website / community and then determine what they will want to see and how.
For example, the types of players could be the following.
New Player - First visit to our community.
Experienced Player - Has participated for some time.
New DM - Is just beginning to participate as a DM in games.
Experienced DM - Has been running campaigns for some time.
Mixture - A player that is both playing and DMing.
Based on this, we can determine what each of these types of players are interested in and then determine how to present it to them.
For example, a new player will want to get into as many games as possible to get up and going. An experience player is much more interested in tracking activity and games in the campaigns they belong to than anything else. |
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Lazybones
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Busy day in the forums. 
I will of course support any effort to create a workable site for NWN2, either here or at a new site. I do think that we do need to get in touch with Rizzen before anything involving the expenditure of money is undertaken (I sort of see that as the "point of no return". If he won't reply to e-mails, then a letter to his physical address. It could be that he and Gilaun are just tired of running the site and would welcome handing it off to others. But either way I don't want hard feelings.
Regarding the site goals.
Simplicity should be the watchword, especially if we're starting something new. Initially, at least, about 3/4ths of the links on the front page can go; those that are necessary can be kept on second-tier pages linked from the front page. News, awards, PW lists, etc. are not needed, at least at first. Focus on the games.
If it were me, I'd toss the current rating system, and just have reviews be one checkbox (Would Play With Again) and a textbox for comments. I'd have it so that you could review all the players/DMs at once after a game; the checkbox and comment box would appear to the right of the player's name/character on the post-game screen. Maybe a box for no-shows, since that's an important part of the matchmaking function.
People like ranks, so if need be you could assign "experience points" based on the number of games you played where the majority of the players checeked the WPWA box. Personally, I think the whole ranking system is superfluous.
Everything should be built around basic function. Scheduler, forum, messages. Once that works (and it should work flawlessly 99.9% of the time), then anything else can be added.
I'd also suggest a way of putting accounts into "stasis" if there is no activity on them for 2 months. They could still be reactivated if the person came back, but otherwise they'd be off the front burner.
Finally, I wonder if anyone here has any real idea of how much server space, bandwidth, etc. this site really needs, other than Rizzen and Gilaun. Historical data will be especially important if you are thinking of putting up a new site, since NWN is much less popular than it was in 2002-03. It would make no sense to set up a server only to have it crash under the weight of use (or to have huge bills pile up that no one can pay). I think if this does go forward as people are suggesting, we would need at least some decent estimates of a)processing power, b)memory/storage, and c)bandwidth needed to handle the anticipated membership load. Maybe you guys are hitting this on the other forum discussion; I haven't gotten over there yet.
Ultimately, Gilaun/Rizzen might be the only ones who could provide that information.
Once those details are worked out, I will happily contribute my dollars to the project. I would love to donate more time, but with NWC now blocked at work I have much less access to the Web than I used to. I do a lot of professional editing in my job so I'm happy to dedicate those skills to the project.
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Poetic Colossus
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I live by the saying, “don’t bite the hand that feeds you” – in a lot of ways it applies to how I feel about NWC.
Because of NWC, I have established friendships with so many wonderful people, played in some truly great games, and ultimately, (and corny as it sounds) was able to fulfill one of my dreams, working for Obsidian on NWN 2.
I owe NWC and its original creators a TREMENDOUS amount of gratitude – and I think that many of us, at times, have taken it for granted. Rizzen and Co could have pulled the plug a long time ago and what would we have done? Sue them?! NWC is indeed a privilege, not a right.
That said, I understand the frustration after having donated a fair amount of money myself, for renovations that never really materialized. I also understand the frustration over lack of communication from the site’s owners. With NWN 2 shipping in June, a lot of people here are a bit apprehensive about what will happen with the sudden influx of both old and new players.
I say give them a chance. Worst case scenario, we continue to use NWC, as it is, to schedule NWN 2 games when they become available.
If, after some time, nothing becomes apparent, then start making plans for a new matchmaking site. There’s not a real rush – NWN 1 came out 4 years ago, and we are still using NWC to schedule games. A few months to make the transition to a new site, however rudimentary, won’t kill us. If it does come down to that, I’d suggest hooking with Shane DeFreest, Obsidian’s community manager. Obsidian knows about NWC and they think it’s a pretty cool function. More than one of their developers has used it to schedule NWN 1 games of their own.
Another option would be to hook up with Rhomal from NWN 2 News - I'm sure he would be in a great position to host something close to what many of you are thinking about
Please don’t take this as a thumbs-down to your planning and preparation – there are some great ideas, coming from great people, many whom I have gamed with in the last year or two. Or three. Or four. Get the point?
Like LB said, let’s give it a bit of time to hear what Rizz and Co have to say – then we can start debating what to do.
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 10, 2006, 5:49AM » |
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StarStuff
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This is what I've been trying to say. I don't think that Rizzen *will* respond, but it seems fair to give him chance, for all the reasons you've said, PC.
In the meantime I think it's best that we start to make some contingency plans - as Kalia said on her forum, a worst-case scenario - but that is all that it is *at this stage*: contingency planning, because of the lack of communication and improvements. (And if that's NOT all it is then I'm not happy about it either. )
By holding the discussion about how we'd like the new site to look and work HERE, it's acting as a wishlist for THIS site as well, should Rizzen still be working on things after all.
That's the way I see it, at any rate.
--StarStuff
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 10, 2006, 9:23AM » |
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Kalia D'Malen
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I know that I can say with assurity that I do NOT want NWC to go anywhere and that Rizzen is a hero in my book for ever starting the site and certainly for continuing its life. No one with whom I've spoken believes that a new site should go forward if Rizzen wants to continue NWC into the dawn of the NWN2 age. Frankly, it's a lot of hard work and he's welcome to it.
Please do not insinuate from anything I've written that I feel otherwise for it's simply not true. But as you said, PC, frustration is very high and personally waiting until after NWN2 is released is waiting too long. The site needs to be up and functional, ready to go when the game comes out. The community must be built...and yes, it needs rebuilding to bring back old player but also building to bring in fresh blood as well...prior to the release and strengthened and maintained after the release.
Truthfully, the site is slow and buggy with the minimal amount of traffic it sees today. I can't even imagine what would happen when hundreds of site connections are being made at any given time.
As for hooking up with Rhomal, I believe that NWC needs to maintain its own identity free of any one gaming organization (IGN, Warcry) or NWN news site (NWV, NWN2News). NWC's strength is in its uniqueness and really doesn't belong 'lumped' in with anyone else's sphere.
There are wondrous things about NWC and if Rizzen comes back and gets everything up to snuff, working smoothly and easily for old members AND new, then I say, HOORAY! Making contingency plans is just proactive in case that doesn't happen.
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 10, 2006, 12:26PM » |
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Bigbluepaw
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As a point of organization, we may want to start a new thread to discuss the management of NWC in the future so that we don't waylay this thread which is supposed to be on enhancement thoughts. It would be great to extract everything we've said here on that topics and get it into a new thread.
Can we do that?
***********************************************
On the point about being grateful to Rizzen, I agree with you all. It took some realy vision and motivation to develop this site. He did a great job overall.
The thing that I am concerned about in the future is 'ownership' of this site by any one individual. Individual's burn out, have real life issues and ultimately their committment to something like this will wax and wane. I know mine did.
When that happens, we get non-responses to the majority of things. When we do get responses, they are not directed towards what the community needs (like the lack of getting Star's User Guide stuff posted) or by someone, unfortunately, that does not have the power to make it happen (Gilaun, you've done a great job, but you can't add new features to the site wihtout permission).
I think fundamentally, that's the biggest flaw... more so than any one bug or enhancement.
So I would like to see some amount of community ownership to avoid this problem. Something where different people can hold off and take on different responsibilities makes sense to me.
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| « Last Edit: on: Feb 10, 2006, 5:43PM » |
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